REFEREES

[jb]

after reading tonights ET i thought i'd post some of my own thoughts on referees as the manager of royal mail fc has put forward various proposals(£25 booking,£50 red card and £30 ref fee).
i dont really agree with the increase in fines as card happy incompetent refs could infuriate a player even more if they act in a manner that a player feels he is wrongly going to have to pay a lot of money.
the idea of paying refs a bit more could be very beneficial to local football on both saturdays and sundays as it would make the prospect of refereeing far more attractive than it currently is.as a player i would have no problem in paying an extra £1 each game and a ref could be paid an extra £10 from each team. i feel that this would help the refereeing shortage immensly and would possibly solve it as £40 for an hour and a half of grief(if you get any!) is surely worth it(are there any refs who have decided to call it a day due to the hassle they recieved who use this site and would it tempt them back?)
this would also give the power back to the league with regards to discipline and performance of referees because at the moment they are a law to themselves and know that they call the shots as they're too important to the league. it would also give referees the desire to go on courses and better themselves as it would be financially beneficial to them to be a top performer.

this is neccessary not only due to the shortage of referees but their general standard as players get most of the blame for the hassle referees get but how many times are infuriated players booked or even sent off due to bad decisions clearly visible to everybody present apart from the referee?!

you never hear critisism of tommy flynn(god that hurt!) and apart from a few disgruntled west town players people dont seem to have any complaints over alan swann either(as a referee! and that hurt too!) these 2 referees have probably reffed almost every player in peterborough at some stage so its not just specific players or leagues but most standards and most players.

mark have the league looked into it before? what do other players,managers and referees think?

and how nice would it feel to know that the referee that doesn't turn up when you've spent all that time,money and effort in getting your squad together gets punished for it! mind you it might hardly ever happen with the extra money incentive.

isn't £1 per player to have these benefits at all levels a small price to pay?

[Tommy Trophy]

Good post JB - £40 seems a reasonable amount and I think would solve the problem in an instant.

Also agree that increasing fines won't work as this will put even more pressure on refs, knowing that even a caution is going to hurt the player financially.

From my own experience found that 4 out of 5 games were great with the 5th leaving you wondering what on earth you are doing there - especially Sunday mornings.

I feel that the attitude and behaviour of teams start with the manager - it is amazing how many sides play and act in his style - we all have a responsibility to set the right example.

[ianh]

I feel that the attitude and behaviour of teams start with the manager - it is amazing how many sides play and act in his style - we all have a responsibility to set the right example.

Well said

an excellent statement, and one which as a secretary I am continually trying to get through.

although on a matchday there are other things like referees, opponents and supporters maybe having a dig, How the team reacts is a lot to do with the manager and the way the team is managed.

[Back of the Net]

Excellent comments here guys...
I run a Sunday morning team - am fairly new to it if I'm honest!

£40 for a ref sounds spot on to me also - why not split the ref fee for every game (home or away) so no single team has to fork out so much cash in one go on a Sunday morning and both are deemed responsible for payment of a well reffed game?
However this would then make the Ref more accountable for No-Shows and poor performance/descisions but worth it surely?

Raising fines for Yellow or Red cards just will not work! players are committed and refs do make the odd mistake, raising fines will only raise tempers!

I do believe that some teams follow the example set by not only their manager but supporters also - they are a minority and with better procedures it seems a fairly easy one to sort!
The Sunday league does suffer from the odd team and supporters that continually not only drive referees away but give us all bad press and basically lower our prospects of decent football on a Sunday morning by their abusive language and actions.
Why can't we have someone on the committee that looks solely at this and attends games where it's likely to occur (someone unknown to the offenders would be preferable!) then, if after a warning the offenders dont clean up their act they are fined 1st, then docked points, then booted out!
Each club in each division could provide 1 person to monitor a game if called upon? this would ensure the offenders don't know who's watching them and if taken from different leagues it would ensure unbiased reports for the league to act on?
Yeah it's harsh but the majority of us in the league know which teams and players/supporters etc could be trouble so it's not rocket science for the league to find them and act on it - we would all offer our support I'm sure! Why not have on the results sheet space for a comment on the opposition to monitor trends in poor sportsmanship marks? the ref could also have space on his sheet for the same? I'm sure after 10 or so games trends could be spotted and then actions taken??
Lots of law abiding decent teams are fined and booted of of cups etc for minor offences yet when we see mass brawls and referees having to stop games etc the most that happens to the offenders is a slapped wrist plus a fine - last year a team I know (decent lads) got 3 points docked for calling a game off late after putting forward a VERY valid reason..
Where's the justice?
From personal experience last year I noted one Sunday morning team (I played against them twice and I watched them twice) and on each occasion the ref and opposition had to endure a tirade of garbarge from their supporters, players and manager etc all game, they continued with this all season and won more than their fair share of cards yet nothing was said or done, I am sure Refs hated officiating those games for a measley £20
It's situations like this that leaves most decent teams and lads bewildered at what goes on within our league heirachy.

Blimey just re-read all that.... rant over - Thoughts?

[CAFC]

Agreed. £40 would make a difference to a lot of refs.
Why not scale it on the class of ref and therefore you ancourage even further referees to have more training, more assesments and more enthusiasm.
I have questioned why I should get up on a cold Sunday morning for £20 and was told that if I didn't enjoy reffing then I shouldn't be there, I shouldn't apparently be doing it for the money. My response,"Good point, I have never enjoyed it, I thought I was helping you all get a game of football".

I think referees are fined for not showing up. But I could be wrong.

I would like to throw in a final point. I have spoken to 3 referees this season who once they had sent off a player have been threatened and even had their family threatened. Then £40 becomes insignificant again.

I think you'll find one of the above mentioned referees has only been qualified for two seasons. So is probably doing exceptionally well with the small amount of experience he has.

[Back of the Net]

I would like to throw in a final point. I have spoken to 3 referees this season who once they had sent off a player have been threatened and even had their family threatened. Then £40 becomes insignificant again.
.

If people are threatened then why are the PSMFL not doing anything about it?
Again i go back to my point about spaces on results sheets for teams and refs to comment on everyones behaviour during and after the game.. if bad reports are common to a particular group then deal with them! Fine them dock points then ban them if persistantly offending?

I am positive most teams (who are decent lads) would support stricter punishment for the minority that act this way and get away with it!

I kind of get the impression that most people within the game know who these minorty are that cause trouble but somehow have difficulty dealing with them for whatever reason?
I would hazard a guess most refs dont get enough support from the PSMFL if they complained about being threatened etc?
And I am positive that most teams feel that complaining to the PSMFL about abusive teams/supporters etc is a waste of time because you just get the same old line trotted out
" write in to us and include a £10 adim fee and we will bring it up in the next hearing"
Yeah right like we can all be arsed with that!

[ianh]

in the UCL a referee had his car damaged at a certain ground and complained.

The upshot is that he is excused from reffing at that ground, but the vehicle damage is a civil matter

[Ross]

Whats the going rate for refs these days? Is it still £20? I think an increase in refs fees may open a few more peoples eyes, which could be a good thing for football. It seems everywhere you go, leagues are struggling to find referees, and an increase in match fees could help. I dont agree with upping the fines for cautions/red cards, as the more card happy refs could cause more uproar, if this was the case.

[pmcvey]

Just been reading with interest the comments about increasing the fines for cautions and dismissals (and increasing referee match fees)

Regarding match fees, £20/£22 for Sunday football is far better than what referees get on a Saturday afternoon in the Peterborough league. If you take away the travelling allowance of 25p per mile £17 (saturday prem) and £12 (all other divisions) seem very low. Looking further afield the UCL match fees are not much higher on a Saturday (without travelling allowance of 25p per mile) £22 (ref) and £16 (assistant referee), £18 UCL Div 1 and £16 in the Reserve divisions. Personally i believe that £30 should be the minimum for referees in both leagues and should be looked into at ALL levels of football. Saying that I will still turn up to referee games regardless of the fee I receive!!

Increasing fines for players would probably have a detrimental effect. Unless nationally we introduced a fine for Dissent which is higher than other cautionable offences. If the cautions were £10 for all other offences and the dissent element could, maybe, be increased to £20. Dismissals for abusing referees (maybe increase this to a minimum £40 fine) What do others think? I, for one, believe this would be seen as a positive approach. Referee retention has to be the key feature really.

[Ross]

The going rate "saaaaf of the river" is £25 both saturdays and sundays, well in the surrey leagues it was, not too sure about here in middlesex. Not too sure what it is in the combined counties league, but its probably around the same amount, but add travelling expenses to it. As Paul said match fees should be a minimum of £30. Still not too sure about increasing fines to be honest, maybe a small increase but nothing too drastic

[Cham1]

I do feel that is is almost enivitable that fees for referees will have to go up in order attract more into the game. However as Paul has said a majority of the referees would officiate for nothing as they enjoy it. We have to accept as well that some do it in order to boost their incomes. What worries me slightly is that there are some clubs out there that simply pay the fines that the players generate. That is something I would like to see stop as it does not matter what level the fines are the culprits are not going to learn if they are not being punished. I feel that clubs should perhaps consider introducing an internal fineing system say for cases of dissent/abuse of officials etc and include this in their club rules. I am not saying it would work but it maybe a step in the right direction.

[Back of the Net]

Our Sunday team operate rules whereby if you're booked for a tackle that looked ok but maybe just a little ott then the club will pay the fine..
BUT if you're booked for abusive language or basically something that is out of order and out of the spirit of the game etc then the player must pay himself..
The theory is that we dont want to discourage going in for the ball as refs sometimes do get it wrong or its 50/50 so the club help out.
But if it's the players fault then they pay!

Surely clubs out there do not pay fines for individuals that cause trouble and are abusive etc???

[bluestar]

slightly different at our club, players are responsible for their own fine for any booking or sending off, but they also get a club fine for any that have been given for dissent - and our club rules have been amended to ratify the change. We still get our fair share of bookings, which I think is as much down to the difference in which the FA wants referees to control games these days,as it is to a change within the clubs themselves.
In this way we have tried to address the dissent issue which is the area that seems to be of most concern these days.

By the way its no secret as to why Tommy Flynn is such an excellent referee - he is old school, simple as that.....i.e common sense + knowledge of the game this leads to respect from the players = Good Referee

[CAFC]

I would like to add. He is also a big geezer, which iliminates a lot of the mouthy little runts. When he has got a decision wrong you don't hear anyone calling big Tom blind. So size yet again matters. :lol:

[Back of the Net]

We have a couple of refs on Sundays that aren't the biggest lads in the world but also command respect because of the way they handle the game!
It's certain players and groups of people that bring agro and dissent to the game and if clubs/PSMFL/Refs were harder on these then we'd see less of it.. it's simple stuff.
Any club thats pays a fine for an indivdual that was carded for dissent should think long and hard as to thier contribution to local football.
Yeah some refs do get it wrong for fouls etc but if you're booked for dissent etc it's usually a black and white case.. did you call them a c*nt or not or where you acting in a violent manner or not etc... if so you're carded and should fork up the money yourself to learn the lesson it's not welcome in the game..
I applaud the posting that mentions their clubs fines players on top of league fines for dissent!

[eddie c s]

netherton operate 10 quid for a yellow . . . 8 quid normal fee and 2 quid admin as my mum is fed up with all the time spent on cards. always seems to be the same select few people . i know i cant afford 28 quid on a weekend to play footy ( 8 quid bein the subs paid for a sat and sun game).

[tom flynn]

Thanks for your sentiments Bluestar And CAFC.BIG you say CAFC, wish you could tell my Mrs that!!!!On a serious note as Bluestar will testify as a player i had a bad disciplinary record and so when i referee now i try and fully understand the position the player has put himself in before i caution them.A word to the player first often does the trick.Im not whingeging but as a player its something the officials did not do to myself.Some players throw the help you try and give them back in your face.I then think well i tried to help you but you must av more money than sense for the caution.And to be honest some players wont even shutup UNTIL you av cautioned them.Part and parcel of the job i suppose.

[Back of the Net]

netherton operate 10 quid for a yellow . . . 8 quid normal fee and 2 quid admin as my mum is fed up with all the time spent on cards. always seems to be the same select few people . i know i cant afford 28 quid on a weekend to play footy ( 8 quid bein the subs paid for a sat and sun game).


Blimey Netherton must be loaded... 8 quid x 11 plus substitutes (4 quid?) is nearly £100 a game! You guys must be dedicated paying £8 on a sunday!